World’s eyes on Aussie NBN: Conroy

NBN

When you consider how dreadfully Conroy is keeping us in the dark on cost benefit of the NBN, it's astounding that any other country think they might learn anything from him.

RE: NBN

I'd like to ask "Anonymous" how he/she would devise a cost/benefit analysis of the NBN, given 90% of the benefits have yet to be invented or even conceived. How do you think the cost/benefit study of the national rail network looked when it was built? Or even the road system? Or the Internet itself?

We can't even imagine how we can use the NBN. It's so much more than just fast broadband access. There's a massive, unquantifiable value in the NBN that is limited only by our imagination. Trying to figure out it's benefits on yesterday's technology is impossible.

It's also worth pointing out that the technology for the NBN (fibre) has no known limits (as yet). It's 100Mbps today, 1Gpbs tomorrow - 10Pbps who knows when? There's nearly infinite wavelengths of light to use!

C/B

Intangible benefits are measured all the time. How do you put a dollar value on, for example, improving the ergonomics of a workspace by buying new office furniture? You won't know until long in to the future.

You estimate and you provide the rationale behind the estimations so that your conclusions can be peer reviewed and weighed against direct benefits vs costs.

The 'we don't know all the benefits' excuse is moot, a C/B isn't a 'to the cent' analysis, it gives you a pretty good idea of whether or not the spend is justified or not.

For all those who believe it is justified, why not do a C/B? Surely if what you believe is true it should be proved out by analysis...

Re: C/B

A C/B analysis should be completed, and i'm confident that it will show the NBN is worth it. But the C/B is being proposed so that people opposed to the NBN can slow down its progess and claim that it should not be built yet.

Society has moved in a very string technological direction. It makes sense that significant money should be spent on upgrading technological infrastructure.

But a C/B will be much harder than suggested by Asmo. While you know that improving ergonomics in the workspace will hopefully improve work productivity you can't say much more than that. Similarly, you can say that the NBN will improve technological productivity. But the specific applications of this use are yet to be imagined. You have potential improvements in health, work, stress, family life, the environment, education, innovation. The list could go on. If you can't see how the NBN will help in these areas, you are short sighted and need to broaden your horizons.

So sure, waste time, do a C/B. But will it show that the NBN can improve any area of life that currently uses some form of technology that might eventually be modified to interlink with the rest of the world via the NBN?

CB Analysis - then what?

What happens if a cost-benefit analysis is performed at it's determined that the cost exceeds the benefit? Will that be it for the NBN? Will we be stuck with an aging copper network forever?

Conroy

I wonder if they were also lining up to talk to him about the LABOR Internet CENSORSHIP plan Conroy is pushing as well? lol. Wonderful that we Aussies are soon to enjoy the same CENSORSHIP as China, Cuba, Saudi Arabia etc :(

NBN Cost Benefit Analysis

Those Luddites who argue that the NBN shouldn't be built because '..there is no financial justification..' should note the stories that have been surfacing this week about how Telecom Australia (the forerunner to Telstra) 'didn't believe there was any future in a data only, packet switched network......'

Errr....I think it's called the Internet?

Cost benefit Analysis

The reason why they're so interested is, they are in awe, wondering how he's going to pull it off. They're happy to sit back and watch us fail so they can tell their citizens - see that's why we didn't do it.

The current plan is unaffordable. In the current state of the plan NBNCo is doomed to be drowned in debt, and investors will be able to see that.

There are other options. In fact one of them, involves still having FTTP. 1. Roll out FTTP to all business parks. 2. At the same time roll out LTE for everyone. 3. As cash flow allows, extend FTTP to residential.

If the NBN doesn't include LTE in their plan, they're not going to get enough subscribers, most will go to the cheaper and more mobile LTE internet. Also, if NBNCo don't build LTE, then we're going to get 4 LTE networks and 1/4 of the bandwidth you could have if you had just one government wholesale LTE platform!

Re: Anonymous and the filter...

LOL anonymous, show me the detailed filter plans that are the same as China, Cuba, Saudi Arabia...? Never seen them yet.

China has at least 30,000 people working on checking content. Nothing of that here.

Cuba has what??? Huh?

Saudi Arabia has proxied off the whole country.... ROFL: Show where that has ever been proposed by any ALP gov?? None of that here...

Mate, we are on Planet Earth here, not Cyberton.

Conroys Internet Caensorship plans

"LOL anonymous, show me the detailed filter plans that are the same as China, Cuba, Saudi Arabia...? Never seen them yet."
Then you need to educate yourself more dont you?
This Whirlpool forum on LABORS Censorship plans would be a good place for you to start !

"Cuba has what??? Huh?"

To use a computer, Cubans have to give their name and address - and if they write dissent keywords, a popup appears that the document has been blocked for "state security" reasons

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censorship_in_Cuba

I repeat, Wake up Australia before we are in the same situation!

Conroys Internet Censorship plans

http://forums.whirlpool.net.au/forum-replies.cfm?t=1327171&p=-1#bottom

Soz anonymous, I went to the WP forum pages on ISP filtering and could not find any copies of government proposals, legislative plans or confirmed government filter models.

What I could find were a multitude of assumptions, speculations and interpretations from forum members about such plans, along with various links to and copies of statements related to the filter and ACB plans and intentions. In addition I found a lively and animated discussion around the whole subject.

All part of a democracy, what?

Some of it seemed a bit overboard though.

Now I have even more insight to the thoughts and perceptions of several of the filter proposal opponents, however search as I would, I could not find any copies of verified plans and models from the DBCDE or Conroy, and especially nothing that looks anything like Saudi Arabia.

EXCEPT in the ideas, thoughts, speculation and assumptions from various forum members. This is a democracy, we are allowed to have these, however legal speculation is, it does not make a model or laws Anonymous.

There is some good and sometimes useful background info, but it is often swamped by pages and pages of references to past models and practices, focus on some forum unpopular folks and prophesies of imminent doom.

Again, show me the confirmed government plans and legislation that matches the planned Australian filter system to Saudi Arabia or China..

Better still, show me a government system in Australia like that in Saudi, that could allow sucfh a system to be created??

Thanks for the info on Cuba: Again show me the legislation or existing model in Australia that matches what is done in Cuba??

Better still, show me a government system in Australia like that in Cuba, that could allow sucfh a system to be created??

I repeat, I see and find none mate, and as far as I can see you can produce none...

Meanwhile I am back to read up some more WP posts, especially some of the other threads, they are excellent.

@ Roddy (not verified)

"Saudi Arabia has proxied off the whole country.... ROFL: Show where that has ever been proposed by any ALP gov?? None of that here..."

Ah, so it comes down to degrees of suppression of freedom, the numbers of clerks paid to monitor our access to information, the volume of hardware/software involved.

Well, that's ok then, we are in cloud lotus land and can sit back and comfortably ignore the best intentions of Conroy, the ACL, Hamilton and the commercial filter vendors.

Silly me worrying there was something nasty in the woodpile, thanks Rod, time for some more political prozac and a nice lie down...

uh...

i love our country but i believe we're still
stuck in the past and these politicians have
no idea how far behind we are as a country when
comes down to the internet.

@Roddy... info from Whirlpool for you.

Hi Roddy,

Just popping in from WP to help you out. The information you seek is in the forum, it's just diluted with a lot of discussion (discussion happens in forums).

I've put a post in the forum to help you out (the forum can move pretty fast at times though). Rather than try to read through 60,000+ forum posts for very specific detailed information a wiki (like the WP wiki) might get you to the information you need more quickly. I've pointed out some of the links in the wiki that are good to start with. Hope that helps :-)

Great

Good to see that the world is interested in the NBN. Maybe this will motivate our government to pull their finger out and get it done

NBN is pointless

This will only goto the cities and no where else.

And cost a packet just to have any access to it as the budget will always blow out and people in gov depts never really want to complete a project because that would mean they wouldn't have a job anymore.

So a half baked network will be done and the whole POTS is ripped apart just so we can get a 1meg filtered network that probably won't be built anywhere in fact the first parts of it are meant to be up and running now in all cities but whats happened. a tassie NBN network test and no one is all that interested in signing up to it.

Yeah, I would of shared your opinion a couple of year ago when it was planned, but where they are currently sticking the regional links (http://www.arnnet.com.au/article/328797/nextgen_wins_250m_nbn_regional_links_tender) I now disagree, i think they're actually taking their time with this, I mean investing $250,000 worth of optic fibre for less than 400,000? that's pretty good if you ask me, and as long as it's all FTTP, we might see a very interesting network indeed, country and city areas getting well over 70 Mbps in good situations. I'm in the Perth metro area and in good situations I get about 5 Mbps.

Re: @Roddy... info from Whirlpool for you.

Hi Neil, thanks for the response and WP links etc.

I amnot avoiding your post, just got caught up with a few other debates of high interest, and spoent some time going through some of those posts etc.

My comment was not meant to imply that the WP is not a fountain of good feedback and information, incl. the ISP filter thread. It is a matter of finding what you are looking for amongst the many posts. I am all for debate and the contesting of views and opposing positions in order to find better solutions to challenges.

I did see though that the ISP thread is not a discussion forum that welcomes opposing views, and pretty effectively swamps the poster who strays in there with another opinion.

BTW Neil, I had not considered the WP thread posters "clueless" at any time. I stated quite clearly that I considered the thread traffic sometimes "over the top" on this subject and I can stand by that. That happens often in lively forums.

I have often asked for more factual and documented detail in this forum, very often indeed. But there is only so much I can do with the interpretations, opinions and assumptions of posters Neil.

I had specifically requested documentation with government commitments on what they were doing...

It was also with wry observation that I was also able to find some references to discussions that I have been having with a couple of your associates, and with a modicum of disappointment to see a couple of them get fairly personal and dismissive, with some uncalled for comments, when they had presented themselves far differently here. *chuckle*

And look at our friend Ben, lol... Well I guess I can live with having the memory of what, a goldfish or similar, having no idea etc? lol, precious mate.

As for some of the other comments, well thank you guys, appreciated. Smug and confident are often mistaken for each other.

And I have no masters on these discussions, you will have to file your suspicions and dismissions away guys, I am all my own man and these are all my own viewpoints...

But remember the context of the discussion at that time of that post:

I requested copies of documentation from the government confirming that Australia was going to have filtering models just like China and Saudi Arabia. (A claim made by a poster)

As a response I was given a couple of links to WP and other sites. Made some good reading, but no gov docs specifying anything even remotely similar to China and Saudi. Zilch.

If you have these, post them Neil. In the meantime I was able to read up on how your associates handled other "genuine" participants (errr *trolls*) that posted on that thread with opposing views. Nah thanks, I will stick to this forum.

@ Roddy

Roddy I'll have to correct you on that last post. The Whirlpool forum has opposing ideas literally all the time. I certainly don't agree with everyone on the forum on everything.

The reason people get 'attacked' in your words, corrected and informed in ours, is because the people who seem in support of the policy almost never cite any references and bring any facts to the table. They also resort to strawman fallacies, much like yourself.

Seriously, I've been discussing this issue with you for a while now, and you still haven't proven that the system is workable or even effective in stopping access to blocked content, given that the scope of the policy is far different from the filtering scope in countries like the UK and Canada, which are also voluntary systems.

Furthermore, you still haven't said why legal content should be banned online.

Debates are all about bringing facts to the table, and from my view, you haven't really cited any.

@Ben: do I know you?

Sorry Ben, whatever problems you seem to be having with legal content wil be resolved I am sure.

I am having memory issues though, have we spoken before?

You must be mixing me up with someone else.

Have a nice day.

@Ben: "what then, is proof to you Sir...?"

Ben, as much as beauty is in the eye of the beholder, anyone can simply decide that he will not accept anything from another person as "proof", unless it concurs with his own opinion, which is often happening here.

I remember the tabacco companies and many smokers not accepting the medical and scientific "proof" that smoking caused lung cancer and other sicknesses for decades...

Today?

Now if the filter is truly as unpopular as you believe and state, then I expect that 50,000 or 100,000 will get into the streets and march against it?

Real protestors and freedom fighters hit the streets,
Keyboard commandos hit the twitters n' tweets...

"Seriously, I've been discussing this issue with you for a while now, and you still haven't proven that the system is workable or even effective in stopping access to blocked content, given that the scope of the policy is far different from the filtering scope in countries like the UK and Canada, which are also voluntary systems. "

Interesting though Ben, in the UK, a BT Internet user can turn off his filtering?

Next question ben, and this is a sweet spot for you to answer:

If the internet filtering is so unpopular, why do 95% of UK internet users NOT opt-out...?

Are they tolerating all the problems you speak of due to fear of gov reprisals, or are they perhasps not experienci8ng all those projected problems?

95% of all UK internet users are being filtered against the IWF list Ben, why do they not move away if, as you claim, it is voluntary?

Democracy Ben, it is all about democracy. Those 95% of UK internet users choose to stay with their filtered connections...

And 95% plus of Australian internet users will not care or even think about the filter, they will continue to use their connections as before...

Whilst you connect via a VPN and Tor to the world to get your unfiltered connection, they will not notice, care or be upset...

They will surf, do emails, IM, blog, chat, do Skype, FTP etc as before.

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